Comments (11)

1. L @ June 19, 2008 at 2:32 pm | Permalink

   Oh deary me, I wish I’d spell-checked that first… Also, I hadn’t realised comments on other entries were liable to be posted as an actual entry!

   Obviously, as I mentioned, playlists are not my area of expertise at all; despite having had an overview of how they work, I shan’t profess to be any sort of expert! I have a feeling that I’ve merely (and not terribly eloquently…) said what some listeners, and others, were thinking.

   On a positive note, it speaks volumes about our new owners that they are willing to post something along these lines, so people shouldn’t be afraid to also put their opinions forward.
2. Adam Bowie @ June 19, 2008 at 5:16 pm | Permalink

   There’s never a right answer to this is there? At Golden Square, we listen to the same radio station upwards of 40 hours a week.

   Yet the average listening hours for the main service, according to RAJAR, is about 6 hours a week. If we assume (and that’s a big assumption) that there are broadly two listening occassions a day – perhaps for the commute to and from work – then they’re hearing less than half an hour of our station in each direction. They may well want to be sure of hearing their favourite songs of the moment in that short time.

   Logic then seems to dictate that we should have songs on repeat every thirty minutes or so. Don’t laugh – it may not happen here, but does happen in other countries. It can just feel like it does sometimes.

   But of course most people don’t listen for that precise length of time, or just on those occassions.

   Some listen as much as we do in Golden Square (or more if they’re Marty in New York); some listen less – perhaps for as little as fifteen minutes over the course of the week.

   The people who listen for a long period of time are actually really important to us. They contribute a very significant number of listening hours to our total, and are therefore commercially very valuable.

   So while two thirds of our listeners listen for less than five hours a week, they only account for 21% of our listening hours. They don’t hear the repetition as much, but then they’re not especially loyal.

   Whereas 9% of our listeners listen for more than fifteen hours a week, but they contribute a massive 44% of our total listening hours. They may be relatively few, but they’re really important because they account for so much of our listening. I’m guessing it’s these people who are complaining about the repetition of music.

   While we want to get some of those light listeners hearing us more a week, the balancing act we have to perform means that we don’t want to annoy those really loyal listeners because they’re so important to the station.

   I’d argue for a broader rather than narrower playlist – especially “out of hours.”
3. Matt D @ June 19, 2008 at 9:00 pm | Permalink

   People tend moan about ‘hearing the same songs’ when it’s a song that they don’t like. No one moans about hearing their favourite song too much.
4. Llia @ June 19, 2008 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

   Thanks Adam, I didn’t know those stats, 9% of our listeners contributing 44% of our total listening hours is a really interesting statistic.

   I suppose I should state my position within VR, to demonstrate to those who don’t know me where my opinion comes from…. bear with me on this one.

   In June 2006, I started work at VR as a member of the Digital Media team, as a placement student. My duties included working with The Breakfast Team, commercial splashpages and microsites, festival coverage and various music section upkeep tasks, including keeping an eye on the relaunched community section of the site and promoting our music content across the web.

   I left in August 2007 and returned to university in September, finishing my final year this May. I was lucky enough to secure a full-time job at Virgin Radio and I started work on the 17th of June. In other words, I started work at Virgin Radio this week, as Music Section Producer for the website. That’s correct, this week, and here’s my comments appearing as actual posts on a blog, being read by Very Important People Who Know Much More About Radio Than I.
   I admit, I’m more than a little daunted!
   Pretty much everyone I’ve mentioned this to has drawn a sharp intake of breath when they heard what the subject matter of my comment/post, interestingly.

   I guess what I’m trying to say is that relatively, compared to most of my colleagues, I am (very) new to radio. I am naive. You could view my position on these matters as being right between that of a listener and that of long-term employees of VR… I know bits about how radio works, a smattering of information picked up from my placement year and light research online, but I am not an expert on how people listen to the station; I clearly have a lot to learn about it though. (I’m still a n00b, if you’ll excuse the Internet humour…)

   My opinion is just that, an opinion. However, whilst at the moment I know little about RAJARs and how playlists are constructed, what I do know about is what I’ve read on forums, blogs, listener e-mails and in the Virgin Radio web community. My domain is digital realm, the Internet is my ‘thing’ and this is where I have seen playlist criticism with relative frequency. Frequent enough to cause me to comment upon its frequency! And in this day and age, where the digital realm is key to the continued success of this station, I think we can ill afford to discount such opinions.

   Of course, I’m not under the illusion that this means I know what all our listeners think of the station. I know what some of the ones that use the web think; this obviously discounts the ones who don’t come online, who are numerous! And you can probably discount a proportion of those who think we are already doing it right – people (online in particular) are often quick to complain and slow to praise.

   I’m also at pains to point out that right now, I have very few suggestions for how to “fix” the issue I’ve raised. Simply, I do not know enough about the history of what works on-air and what doesn’t. People that I’ve worked with during my time at VR, like Andy Grumbridge, Anthony Abbott, Adam Bowie and James Cridland are far more qualified to discuss the relationship between web and radio, so I shan’t waffle on anymore.

   Just to summarise: I’m young, I’m dumb, I don’t have the answers, but I like to point out ‘problems.’ Just like most of the Internet really!

   –

   (And to state once again – my post was originally a comment on another post, hence the half-bakedness of it and the seemingly random leap from one subject to another. Never mind!)
5. dx @ June 20, 2008 at 9:14 am | Permalink

   I feel like I should write an essay as a reply, but I’m far too busy (read lazy) for that. Instead I’ll let our VIPs do the talking

   http://tinyurl.com/5ljdnr
   http://tinyurl.com/6b4f53
   http://tinyurl.com/6ctqu5
   http://tinyurl.com/5rb2eh
   http://tinyurl.com/5myx5b
   http://tinyurl.com/6rursm
   http://tinyurl.com/6hwjfj
   http://tinyurl.com/5ds3ha
   http://tinyurl.com/6y66px
   And finally, a petition they set up http://tinyurl.com/5a339e

   Now, I’m not saying I agree with any of this, just backing up the original post above/fanning the flames ;)

   These blog posts do come from the 9% of our listeners who contribute 44% of our listening hours, so are probably important anyway.
6. ed @ June 20, 2008 at 3:55 pm | Permalink

   But OF COURSE they don’t listen to Virgin Radio more than 30 minutes per day. What else you can wait if you play the same one rubbish songs one after another? When I tune in to Virgin Radio, nothing suprise me at all.
   Bring on more varied playlist and people will tune in and listen MORE.
   That’s how it works, you can’t have playlist with 15 songs and expect that people will listen from 7.00 to 22.00
   :o
7. Bingethink @ June 23, 2008 at 8:13 pm | Permalink

   Matt D said: “No one moans about hearing their favourite song too much.”

   I will admit to being odd, but actually, I really don’t want to hear my favourite songs too much on the radio! The reason: my favourite songs are special to me. I don’t want them ruined by not being played at **exactly the time I choose**! I will quite happily play my favourite song on repeat if I want to, but I don’t appreciate a radio station ruining my favourite song for me by overplaying it!

   Moderation in all things.
8. Geoff @ June 23, 2008 at 8:49 pm | Permalink

   Hey Llia,

   You shouldn’t feel embarrassed about expressing an opinion, it’s what the new gaffers say they’ve set this ‘blog up for, and that (unless they’re hoodwinking us, and it’s really a giant Stasi trap to weed out dissenters)has to be a good thing.

   It’s very common in commercial radio workplaces to feel like your opinion doesn’t matter. If you offer your opinion on the output, you’re dismissed out of hand and told that you’re not like a “real listener”. Yes, you might be listening to the radio station in question for your entire working week, but your comments are worthless because (this old chestnut) you’re too close to it. The prevailing wisdom in the industry is that if you care enough about radio to actually devote your working life to it, then your thoughts and feelings on the medium are null and void.

   If you pass on anecdotal comments from friends, acquaintances etc, these are also disregarded, once again, because they’re supposedly not representative of the real audience either. Never mind that they are real people who listen to the radio, in an age and social demographic that programmers and advertisers covet. We’re told they’re not like the fabled “real listeners”.

   As for real feedback, on the website, or through texts/email/calls to the studio, this is often ignored too. And why? Because those people aren’t “real listeners”. That’s right. The people who are actually listening. We’re told they’re the weirdos, the obsessives, the anoraks. Any opinions they have are written off, glibly rejected as a self-selecting sample.

   So who are these “real listeners”, whose insight is so invaluable? The focus group members who’ll go and sit in front of a frosted mirror for a whole evening for £30 and a slice of pizza? The people at an auditorium test, listening to a small selection of music and ticking boxes for a baseball cap and some HMV vouchers? These people aren’t representative of the wider general public, they’re just representative of the kind of person who’ll take part in market research. Which, as anyone who’s ever stood in a shopping precinct with a clipboard will tell you, is a small and often peculiar subsection of people in general. Are these people’s thoughts really that much more valuable than those of passionate radio professionals, or anecdotal comments, or the opinions of our own, engaged, listeners?

   It’s a good sign that TIML/Absolute are encouraging an open dialogue. There are a huge amount of talented, bright people working within commercial radio who have been transformed into robotic drones, weathered down and browbeaten into repeating the same old mantras and formulae on music and programming, even though these are so obviously outdated and failing. The division between the BBC and commercial radio is getting to the stage where the former stands almost exclusively for quality and content, and the latter for low-rent background noise. Pumping out lowest common denominator shit to the masses may have been a good business model ten years ago, but not any more. The proliferation of media has put paid to that. It is broadcasting unique and compelling content that will now make the difference.

   We in commercial radio need to stop boo-hooing about the BBC and look at the real reason they are doing so well. It’s simply because they offer really good radio stations. Yes, part of the reason they are able do this is money, and the thought of us adjusting profit margins to compete is probably too horrific to even contemplate. But the other, far more important thing that the BBC fill their radio stations with is imagination. Original and creative programming across their schedules. We can do this, too. There are armies of brilliant, imaginative people working throughout commercial radio, but they’re frustrated, withering away, crunching numbers and following obsolete dogma. Commercial radio needs to stop suppressing, and start listening to and encouraging the talents of its own people.

   I’m in my tenth year here at One Golden Square, but I’m not a great one for heydays. There’s as much talent, creativity and potential here as there ever was; from Llia who’s in her first week proper, to Fiona who was here before they opened the doors. Will TIML/Absolute carry on as they’ve begun, and encourage an open environment where this bunch of brilliant oddballs can speak freely and passionately, and share fresh thinking?
9. kweez @ June 26, 2008 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

   Totally agree with Bingethink on this one – I am exactly the same. When my favourite song is played on the radio too much, I don’t complain about it but that’s because eventually it is no longer my favourite song.

   I need to have a general muso-rant/teenage anecdote… so apologies in advance.

   Being from the USA I know what horrible radio sounds like and it’s no surprise that I regularly shunned radio in favour of my parents’ old records, and insisted on installing a tape deck in my first car before I could even afford new tires (or learn how to spell ‘tyres’, incidentally). It’s also no surprise then, that my first real appreciation of radio was when I discovered WLFR Stockton Radio, my first college broadcast. Run by students, no commercials apart from public service announcements, and more variety than I can actually even remember. But I also remember the whole excitement of tuning in for certain shows because I knew that not only would I hear a few familiar songs but I would be heading to class tomorrow with a whole new list of albums to buy that week, by artists that I’d never heard of until the night before, and that not that many other people would know about. Similarly I would stay up far past bedtime on a Sunday night just to catch 120 minutes on MTV, as they’d play all the cool British stuff that us American kids just couldn’t get hold of easily. In other words, my teenage years were a constant yearning to hear what was previously unheard.

   Now I’m here, but I still remember those days and how much of a novelty new music was, and how grateful I still am to those so-called amateur student presenters who simply just played the music that they heard about and loved, and just wanted to share it. But one thing hasn’t changed, I still yearn to hear what I haven’t heard before, and I have a low tolerance to repetition (particularly repetition of things that aren’t to my taste, as expected).

   As a teen, do you remember what it was like to be the one who finds out about a new artist, the excitement you felt when you felt special enough to be part of a small elite who discovered this that great music? When the music you liked was not considered music by your parents (ie. the first time you brought home Surfer Rosa by The Pixies and knew it was an important record despite pretty much anyone over the age of 30 dismissing it as noise)? And then the ensuing disappointment you felt when the masses began to catch on and it turned out you weren’t so special anymore after all? When your parents’ friends would visit and to your dismay could hum the tune to Smells Like Teen Spirit, AKA ‘selling out’. ‘Selling out’ used to be very uncool – oddly now it is the aspiration of most artists. but I digress…

   Where can you really go these days to find out about new music? When I began working here, I was told it was still radio, but if you really and truly love music, I’m not so sure! At least, not commercial radio. As of late, the only way for me is either live gigs or last.fm, and on even more cynical occasions, word of mouth recommendations only. What station can I tune into to hear something like, say, Aphex Twin? Or all of those Bob Dylan tunes that aren’t Like A Rolling Stone, Mr Tambourine Man or The Times Are A-Changin? What if I like Portishead or King Tubby? Occasionally BBC 6 Music maybe?

   When did this happen? When John Peel left us, did he take with him our general excitement for taking a chance on variety? When did we – not just commercial radio but people in general – stop being musically adventurous and start ‘playing it safe’? Is it the fault of major record labels? Pop Idol? Or did we just become – gulp – adults, and lose our teen angst edge?

   A lot of questions, and being relatively new to commercial radio and the UK alike, maybe some of you have the answers.

   I’ve really enjoyed this thread, some great points made.
10. Matt D @ June 26, 2008 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

    Whilst I definitely agree with Geoff that the self-selecting nature of (some) research makes the people not representative, i’d also say that, at the other end, the people who take part in forums like this and are regular contactees of the radio station aren’t always exactly representative either.

    I always feel slightly disappointed when research is completely written off – it’s mainly by people who’ve never been involved in the process.

    I’ve been lucky enough to be involved in research (both good and bad) and the good stuff’s always been incredibly insightful. As bright individuals, we’re always biased, in some way, to believing our opinions are reflected by the right-thinking wider populace, however often this isn’t the case (i’m determined that my favourite mid 90s pop rock is popular, but I don’t seem to have found the right group of people to agree with me, yet).

    Research, with the a representative sample asking the right questions can give real insight and oftetn allows many different opinions (like the ones voiced here) to be tested. So, in the same way that we shouldn’t dismiss the views of ‘fans’, lets not dismiss the views of non-fans who make up the bulk of listening to radio stations like Virgin.

    What I do think is interesing is a point Adam raised about the different kinds of listeners, the amount of time they give to the station and how they then goes on to generate the revenue. When you’ve worked out which one’s you’re after – to me that’s the base on how the station’s programming should be devised.
11. Geoff @ June 26, 2008 at 8:38 pm | Permalink

    Hey Matt,

    I hope I didnt come across as one of those people who give no credence whatsoever to research. That certainly wasn’t what I intended to convey. As I’ve commented elsewhere (in the post they labelled ‘Fresh Thinking’) my points were:

    a) Given that research is also flawed, why follow it like scripture whilst completely ignoring other (equally or possibly even more flawed) forms of feedback?

    b) A radio station’s best, and yet often most underused resource is the talent and imagination of its own, brilliant creative people from all departments. Unlocking this is a better strategy than asking the man in the street what he wants, when all the best ideas are the ones that nobody in the street realised that they wanted until a creative, individually-minded person had the idea, the eureka moment.

    Adam has furbished me with many useful pieces of research over the years, I respect the science of it immensely. And of course you’re right – it wouldn’t be a good idea to only ask feedback from people who already love the radio station.

    Here’s a question, though: Is it more interesting to use research to find out what makes a vocal and ardent fan so passionate, and try to expand on, tap into and spread that strong emotion? Or should we using research to find out what’ll keep the indifferent listeners just about hanging in there on life support?

    No qualitative research sample is truly that representative. It’s easy to poke holes through the methodology of every kind of opinion-led feedback. What I’m sometimes taken aback by is the readiness and contempt with which this is done if its our own listeners interacting directly and immediately.

    It’s not fifteen years ago, when interaction with a radio station meant badly spelled letters in green ink from weirdos, or heavy breathing down the studio phone-in line. This old thinking infects the ways in which we think of our listeners.

    We are living in a modern world where interaction through SMS, websites, the red button is increasingly part of a normal consumer’s media experience. Let’s not miss our opportunity to be a part of this by labelling listeners who interact as freaks.